Apathy in Grassy Narrows & The Emergency Act Flop with Darshan Maharaja

I sit down with Darshan, a political commentator to talk about his efforts to push past political apathy to get mercury remediation for Grassy Narrow FN and to discuss the enactment of the Emergency Act in Canada and what that means for our future.

Find his work here: https://darshanmaharaja.ca/

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Transcript

Coffee Breath Conversations: 0:16

All right, everyone. Well, welcome back to coffee breath Conversations. I'm your host Russell. And today in studio I have Darshan. Darshan is a political commentator, from Ontario. I reached out to him on Twitter, I was really interested in talking with him about the mercury remediation project that's going on in grassy narrows. And also, I read his article, the rotten bananas. And I thought we could talk a little bit about the emergency act. Welcome to the show Darshan,

Darshan: 0:50

thank you for a meeting.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 0:52

Before we get started, if you could give us just a brief background on yourself, and what led you to being a blogger online.

Darshan: 1:02

So I grew up in India, I was born there, by education, I'm a chartered accountant, then I moved to Africa, lived there for about six years, moved back to India, another three years, then went to middle east, to United Arab Emirates, I lived there for I think about five years, then I came here. So there is a mix of experiences that I bring to viewing things in Canada, over the period, I think, in the last seven, eight years, you know, I had this increasing feeling that the commentary and analysis that we get from our legacy media is lacking certain components, one of them is knowledge of what has happened elsewhere. So I thought I should contribute my voice to that through social media. And then later on, I started my own website, Darshan maharaja.ca. And that's where I bring all those experiences into the picture and see it through my eyes. So I'm not telling people what I think. I'm also telling them why I think what I think because of the things that I have either experienced or know from history, I think that's that makes some contribution to the overall quality of the debate in Canada. Definitely more people can bring their experiences the way I am doing. And if we have more of that, then the quality of our debates can improve.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 2:40

With grassy narrows. What What brought you to start looking into grassy narrows in the situation that occurred there historically, and all the way up to today.

Darshan: 2:52

I knew about it vaguely. I remember back in 2018 there was no you know, Ontario election, there was some coverage of grassy narrows. That is probably the time when I really realized what the problem was. Until then it was just a vague, you know, kind of impression that something's wrong. But then because there was this provincial election, there was coverage of that. What I didn't catch on at the time, I learned it later was that the government of Kathleen Wynne had created a plan to remove the mercury from the reverse. And that's what led to all that coverage. Also, Andrea Horvath of NDP was there in grassy narrows saying this needs all hands on deck approach. So those are the things that I remember then again, it receded from my consciousness. And then there was that infamous video of that protester at one of the Liberal Party fundraisers where Justin Trudeau thanked her for that donation. Even then, I didn't take very active interest, but one of the articles that I wrote, and I'm thankful to all the First Nations and indigenous friends that I have online, because they keep tossing out ideas that you know, for them, those are perfectly natural, but for me, it's a revelation. So I was building on my understanding and explaining my understanding of these issues from an immigrant point of view. And at some point, I realized that there is this thing called grassy narrows, but I don't know what's going on there. So I did an internet search. Then I caught on to the funding and plan that had been announced by Kathleen Wynne. So my simple desire was to know where the implement implementation stands of that plan. $85 million had been set aside in trust with a major bank. So I wrote to my MPP who is from the Conservative Party, and then I started getting the go round. A lot of my indigenous friends on Twitter know, and they kept telling me you're going to get a go around now. But I said I am not giving, I need to know, because I'm in Ontario, I am a Canadian, and this is affecting the lives of people in Canada. So I have to know. And secondly, having grown up in a city that was purely government, nothing else, you know, I had this understanding of how bureaucracies and politicians and governments behave. So is it I am not going to let them go. Then what happened was in the lunar calendar of Hinduism, there is one fortnight where we pay homage to our deceased parents and grandparents and other ancestors. So when that Fortnite arrived, I said, this is going to be my homage to my father and my father in law, both are no more. Because both were civil engineers, they built dams over their lives, entire working lives, that's what they did, they maintained them. And because of that, I have a closer relationship to water and supply of water for a civilization, then the average person would, so as it deserves to be my homage to them. So now it is I have, I am at a point where I cannot give up. Even if whatever comes I cannot do I have to keep pushing on this. I have reached out to provincial politicians of all parties, including independents and candidates. I'm going to take help from wherever I can get it. But this has got to get done because and just today, I was in a conversation on Twitter with someone I said, this is a matter of national shame. And this person said, it is not national shame, it is the government shame. But I disagree with that, because we have a representative form of governance, so they represent us. And if something doesn't get fixed for 50 years, something that is causing people to die before they die, actually, because some of them are living dead, you know, their condition. Is that back then, at what point do you say that I'm still distanced from this tragedy? It has to be my shame, which I feel and it will go the day there is no mercury in those waters. So this was basically how I got to this issue. Now before we proceed, I think one clarification needs to be given because I have given it numerous times on social media. In the moment you say, First Nations or grassy narrows. Everybody will think of the federal government because that is their responsibility. But this project is provincial and given to understand that waterways including rivers, lakes, and river beds and lake beds are provincial responsibility. environmental cleanup is also under provincial jurisdiction. And the mercury that has to be cleaned from this stretch of river is about 130 kilometres stretch of river English and its tributary woebegone river. So those are beyond the boundaries of the First Nations. There is not just grassy narrows there is for others there. But beyond their area, there is still a lot of stretch of the river that has to be cleaned. So this is a provincial project. I get a lot of replies saying Hey, why are you chasing Ford for this? Chase, Justin Trudeau, but this is a provincial project. Again, there are components to this, because apart from the 9000 kilos of mercury that they released in the water, about 50 years ago, in the 1960s and early 70s, I think around 1974, or there abouts. There was another quantity of mercury that was buried on site at the factory there at Dryden. So that mercury is leaching through underground water into the rivers. So that is Component number two. For that the company is responsible for collecting samples and analyzing and then the provincial government's role kicks in. I communicated with that company. It's called DOM tar and I think they are based in North Carolina us. And their analysis was supposed to be completed by fall of 2021. So I think around December or January, I reached out to them I said, Is it done? And they said, it has been delayed until spring of 2022. So that is Component number two. And Component number three, of course, is the medical treatment, which now because it's on the First Nations Reserve itself, it is federal responsibility. Last year, the federal government announced, I think total is about 88 million. The last year's announcement was for an additional 69 million for establishing and Mercury care home on the reserve. And previously, it was supposed to have began in 2019, with a funding of 19 million, but the people there said, this is not enough, it's not going to suffice. So then there was a fresh round of negotiations more funding, and us total is around 88 million now. And construction is supposed to begin this spring in 2022. So once this gets going, then I'll have to go after that. For now, my focus is completely on provincial government. And they're from what I see inability or unwillingness to act on this. What has happened is this is about four years old. Now. The act was passed in November 2017. And the funding was put in place in early 2018. panel was cleared. So we have four years in roughly $30 million has been spent. And the work of mercury remediation has not yet begun.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 11:23

So where do you think the money is gone? It seems like there's been million spent on various things. Nothing has actually been done. So where does the money go?

Darshan: 11:37

If you look at the report, the panel issues a report every year, which in my view is not sufficient, we have to take it on a war footing and bring it to a corporate level reporting of quarterly frequency. Secondly, the reports, I don't know if they are audited or not. But I have not seen any variance analysis, when they decided that 85 million was going to be transferred for this purpose. They must have had some estimates estimate of each activity, what was going to cost how much versus that where are we have we spent more have we not spent enough? That is not known. So I'm pushing for that to be done as well. I had a meeting with the Ontario liberal MPP Stephen play, who is their indigenous critic. So he said he's going to work on this, there has to be some kind of a comparison as to what was estimated versus what has been spent. But if you look at the report, mainly they are collecting samples. And that's where the money is going, then there is capacity building at the reserves themselves. I suppose that could mean that whatever technical knowledge is required, some people are being trained, and that training is costing us something, but local capacity is being built. That is how I understand that. And then there is participation, expenses, which you know, if I may be blunt, it's like, you know, expense for you're paying people to show up at meetings. So that doesn't count as productive expenditure in my view. Now I discuss this with a toxicologist. And this kind of contamination happens to be his specialty he did his PhD in in the US. And he said for given these details it cannot go on for three years or four years. I was talking to him mid last year. So he says it cannot go on collecting samples cannot go on for so long. There has to be some kind of bottleneck, or from my point of view, maybe it's it's not so high on their agenda. And where I'm surprised is that the opposition hasn't been hammering on this. The government's failed, there is 100 ways in which they can fail. So I'm not particularly blaming the government for failing. I'm looking at the opposition parties that have also dropped the ball on this for four years if attending to this mercury remediation plan required all hands on deck, according to miss Horvath in 2018. Then where are those hands? I don't see them anywhere. So I'm talking to their deputy leader, Sarah Singh, had a meeting with her that was back in Norway. So hopefully once you know now that the provincial legislature is back in session with the election season coming up, hopefully there will be more interest in this. But will

Coffee Breath Conversations: 14:57

that interest actually transfer to action because we all know that when election seasons coming up, the money flows pretty freely the words out of people's mouths flows pretty freely. This community, they've been suffering with this since the 70s, the pulp mill that dumped all that mercury into the water, and buried so much of it, that's poison the soil. Have they ever been held to account? Have they ever been gone to court and had to pay anything or be accountable for their actions?

Darshan: 15:36

Oh, back in the day, there was some compensation agreed they went to court. I mean, they tried everything that someone can try. Within a democratic setup. They were given some compensation. And, in fact, I understand there is a monthly payment to each member of the reserves that goes out, used to be $200 a month, and each had stayed $800 a month for decades. So then, after the previous election in 2018, that amount got increased, I think it's about 1700. Now, so they, they have been recompense somewhat for the damages that they are continuing to suffer from. But I think back in 1985, it was agreed that all the I mean, the owner of the company, and any future owner in case the company got sold, would be indemnify from any further liability. So that is baked in, you cannot hold the company any more reliable than it has already been. You know, my focus is on getting the job done. Rather than looking at what should have been done before. You know, there are a lot of past wrongs. I don't want to overload the agenda with too many things. Even when I met Sarah Singh, of NDP, she was talking about the new mining exploration permits that the Ford Government has given to I believe, 13 companies. And I told her that, you know, I want to stay focused on Mercury remediation only. Because if I have too many things on my plate, I won't be able to finish it, I have to select one thing and stay on it. They were they gave me feedback a few times saying we have done this for the mining exploration permits. And we have done that for mining exploration permits. I told them, I'm not interested because I would love to be interested. But I don't want to make it an unmanageable situation. I have to focus on one issue and then ignore everything else. Because they're only going to get the amount of resources that I can give it.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 18:06

Well, that sounds like deflection when they when they start talking about something else. But they're not actually addressing the issue at hand.

Darshan: 18:15

Yeah, but you know, if a government deflects, I can understand because they are in the hot seat. But as opposition, they should welcome the opportunity. Okay, if if they haven't, if they drop the ball for four years, fine. But now that I'm bringing it to their attention, they should pick up the ball and run with

Coffee Breath Conversations: 18:35

it. Well, you would think the NDP and the liberals, they want to get back into power, you would think that this would be something every single time that Doug Ford speaks, or one of his MPP speak that they would be there. Okay, that's good. But what are we going to do about grassy narrows? How are we going to fix this? And like you said, there seems to be a bit of a radio silence.

Darshan: 19:00

Yeah, I even reached out to as I said to the independent candidates, previously conservative and then no longer in the caucus. And they also were quite lukewarm about it. You know, it's like, this is an issue that they like to have. Because every election cycle, it becomes beneficial to talk about it. If it gets solved, then they can't talk about it anymore. Maybe I'm being cynical here. But when I approached them, and in fairness, the candidate for the Liberal Party in my writing, she has been the most responsive to this. She is the one who called me back. She spoke to me a few times. She's the one who organized my meeting with MPP Stephen play. So there is some sign of life here. I think one of The problems with the Ontario Liberal Party is that they don't have many MPs. So each MPP would be, you know, having more to do than would be the case if they're the larger caucus, maybe, but MPP Blair did promise me that he will get it rolling at the parliament once the session begins. And then I said it would take maybe about a month, the information to come back, etc. What he said was that, you know, he looked at the report that I showed him. And he said that when the Reports says that a payment was made to the reserve, for collecting samples, what happened to that money? That is, now you are looking at a second level of reporting? Maybe they are getting the sample collection done by a third party? That would be a reasonable assumption, because they would not have the technical know how to go about it. So what is that third party doing? What are the terms of their contract? Those are the details that we have to dig into.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 21:09

You said in your professional life, that you are an accountant. Based on what you've seen, in your opinion, do you think that there's been a good accounting with the money that's been allocated? or should there be better accounting not only for the people of grassy narrows, but also the taxpaying public as well?

Darshan: 21:33

I can't speak to the accuracy of the numbers, because I have absolutely no way of knowing. So when assumes that the numbers are correct. But as a professional, I would want to see a few things. As I said, first of all, the reporting has to be more frequent. It has to be accompanied by a variance analysis that we estimated X amount for this activity and it has ended up costing us why then what is the difference between x and y that has to be there. And any project of this nature should have a concomitant comparison with the estimated completion date, which would not be accounting information, it will be technical or engineering information. That is not there. I have seen reports for the last two years. And every time the report concludes by saying that in case the project is not completed in the next five years, the remaining funds in the trust account may not suffice for the completion of the project.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 22:46

Oh, wow, that's, that's pretty extreme.

Darshan: 22:49

Yeah. Right. And you did started out with 85 million. Now, again, there is an explanation in order here, because the trust fund account is earning it is invested somewhere. So you cannot take 85 million minus the amount spent so far, which is the balance interest on the account, because it would be more by the amount of income generated at this stage four years or three years, the latest report is from 2020 to 2021. Sorry. So three years after the project got started, if they are not sure whether the implementation will be completed in the following five years, then you have a problem. And that problem is because the technical variance analysis is not what was the estimated project duration, when the plan was made versus what has not been done until now. And whatever has been done, how much longer did it take and why these are the professional angles from which all these information has to be analyzed and presented, which is not being done, they just make a you know, four or five page report every year. The year ends on 31st of March. And the report was presented to Parliament on Eighth of November. So there is no sense of urgency as far as I see.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 24:14

How can every day people get more involved with this? How do we help grassy narrows? Do we reach out to our MPs, what can we do to help the community to get resolution for this?

Darshan: 24:32

Definitely people can and should get in touch with their MPs and the candidates see the MPP is may have their own set of priorities, especially if they happen to be from the party in government because you are talking about a government failure here. But if there are candidates who are willing to at least familiarize themselves with this you When talking to some of them, I have found that they have the same confusion between federal and provincial jurisdiction. So it has to be emphasized that this is a provincial plan, it was passed into law in 2017, the funds were set aside $85 million in 2018, roughly 30 million has been spent, the work has not yet even begun. And once they begin that, they will have to factor in the leaking mercury from the factory site. So it's it's not a simple thing of, you know, getting to work on the river, and then you're done. Because there is fresh Mercury arriving continuously from somewhere else. So getting in touch with your MPs, and candidates for the coming election is definitely one way of going about it. If anyone has any reach in media, hopefully, you know, legacy media also, I had one article published by Toronto Star, everybody can, you know, utilize the opportunities that they are able to get and increase awareness. Hopefully, from next month from April, things will eat up. So that's when any communication will have greater impact.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 26:21

I took a look online to do a bit of research before we had our talk. And there has been articles in Toronto Star there's CBC has done articles, there's, there's been videos done, there's been videos done by the community, there's been videos done by Amnesty International, there is all these, there has been a lot of actual media output. But it seems like there's apathy like people just don't seem very concerned about it overall, and it seems to reflect a bit in our our government's kind of response. At what point do you think, does it become neglected enough that the people of grassy narrows can bring the government to court over it?

Darshan: 27:08

Let's look at the components of this. When you say media reports, you will find them clustered around certain periods. I'm not saying necessarily election campaigns, but certain periods. Compare that to the coverage of Mike Duffy affair where it was the first thing on the national every day for months, and they kept hammering on it. So that is the kind of priority that the media needs to give to this issue. Because doing it you know, once every few months, and then it dies away, can't happen that way, they have to take the lead on this, but then people can also you know, hammer on this saying we want this to be to be taken up by the media, which is what we are trying from, you know, our limited resources, we are trying that. And if that voice becomes louder, because I'm being perfectly frank here, if it becomes an election issue, and if they feel that they may end up losing, even when writing not just the overall election altogether, even when writing that person will be you know, you will become very energetic about this. So you have to create that kind of pressure and it is part of the democratic process. You tell them that you are not going to vote for this candidate unless they do something concrete about grassy narrows simple. So the failure is in multiple components at the political level. From the media side, and from the voters side. The way hydro costs or hydro rates was an election issue back in 2018. In Ontario, this has to be somewhere similar.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 29:06

I think there's more that we could talk about on grassy narrows. But we did agree that we would also talk about the emergency measures act. Yes ago, I would like to segue into the EMA, but grassy narrows. I mean, that topic, there's something there and I and I wish that the legacy media would invest more time and energy into because I think there's a story there that a really important story that they've only scratched the surface

Darshan: 29:34

of is, but one part is the remoteness of the place. It's roughly 2000 kilometers northwest of Toronto, and majority of the writings are in the GTA. So even for media they are mostly based somewhere in this region. So for them to go there you have to go to Canada and then drive down 70 kilometers to Dryden. And then maybe no grassy narrows is further up. It's the remoteness of the place. population wise, I think the population of grassy narrows is about 1000. And all the other four reserves put together will be another 1000. Unless we treat this as a moral responsibility, there are no practical reasons for giving it priority. If you look at the distance, the difficulty of getting there the number of people that even infrastructure would be limited. If I want to drive down there, where do I live? Right. So this has to be taken up as a moral responsibility, then only it is justified, saying, hey, you know what, this is not right. People have suffered long enough for three generations. And it is now my mission to put an end to this survey, as the only way to do it.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 31:03

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Darshan: 34:20

Well, there is a degree of flippancy that I see in this, because if it was something serious, then it would have stayed around. You don't invoke emergencies act for something that could have been first of all, resolved by other laws. The way the border blockades were there they were not resolved by use of emergencies Act. There is a kind of, maybe you can call it flippancy, impunity, whatever. But you know, this is not going to be oh, this is going to drag on because there are already court challenges against the invocation of the emergencies act by the Civil Liberties Union and by the Constitution foundation. So those are at least two legal challenges that I know of where they are arguing that the thresholds that are in the emergencies act, were not met when the government invoked the act. But I go one step back, because later on Anthony fury, I think he's the one who wrote in Toronto Sun, saying that the justification, the paper that was presented in Parliament, officially by the government, relied upon the analysis of the database by CBC. So now, there are a couple of issues here, when your data is in the normal sense, it was act data. And secondly, CBC is not a law enforcement agency, or the government, it's not an arm of the government in any way. Or that's what they want us to believe that there is no part of the government, although demonstratively probably is. So when the information on which a decision is made, was the result of a crime, its availability was the result of a crime. That decision cannot be valid in law. Simple example, when there is a trial in a court and the police or the prosecution present evidence that the defense proves was collected. by violating the rules attaching to that evidence, the court will toss out the case. And if the judge agrees that this was not a violation of those rules, and rules on that case, the appeals court will declare a mistrial and send it back to the trial. Sometimes even that doesn't happen. The you know, the injustice of the whole thing is so egregious. So my question as a layman, I have no background in law. My question as a layman is that if this was information made available by a hack, which is a criminal activity, was the government criminally responsible for invoking something not not just the emergencies act for making any measure? That depends on the proceeds of a crime. Basically, the information available was proceeds of crime,

Coffee Breath Conversations: 37:49

all the bank restrictions that they put in there all relied on that hack list is for them to put the bank restrictions in. I don't think they thought that through because didn't lead to a small run on the bank when that happened.

Darshan: 38:04

Yes. I also heard although I have not verified this, but people including family of those whose accounts were frozen, if the family members gave them their credit card to us, for the time being, even those cards have been frozen. Now, I must emphasize, I have not confirmed this, but this is what I'm hearing from some of them. So as I said, this is not going to go away. There are lawsuits in the works from the people whose accounts were frozen. My inquiry would be whether this constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. Because if you cut somebody off from any means of survival, then there is a case to be made that this is cruel and unusual punishment. Whether it is violation of charter, this is for legal minds to resolve it as a layman. These are the questions I have and those questions are going to be asked, this is going to stay with us for a long time probably years.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 39:12

What a political ramifications Do you think invoking the EMA and then backing off is going to have for the Conservative Party, the liberals and the NDP?

Darshan: 39:24

Oh, well, one hopes that there are ramifications although, you know sometimes doubts that conservatives are right now in a state of flux. As a party, I don't expect them to take any stand that will necessarily stand the course of time. NDP has shown a tendency, especially under leader Jagmeet Singh, it has shown a tendency of bluster but then ultimately, they fall in line with the Liberal government. For whatever reasons, I mean, it's no point speculating, but that is how they are in the present delta. So they are unlikely to oppose this very much. The question is, if and when the tide turns, who is going to be making excuses that this isn't what they meant to do, but were pulled along or whatever. Because the moment you start having a few 100 cases, which can then you know, morphed into a class action lawsuit, and then with all the resources that attached to that, you may see legal verdict, holding the government, you know, either in breach of law at fault or whatever, then you're going to have to re think of the use of emergencies act, because otherwise, and I have written about this several times that our partisanship runs so deep, that we don't accept verifiable facts. My first experience with this was about the debate regarding national energy policy of Pierre Trudeau. And today, I'm telling you, if you start the discussion on that opinion, will be as divided as it was in 1982. And the same arguments keep getting repeated. You take any any issue. So that can only be the result of partisanship, because people don't fail to evolve. And people are intelligent they want it's only partisanship that makes us cling to disprove claims, as if they were facts or discredited theories or, you know, all sorts of miasma. If there is a court verdict on this, then you will see a complete rethink on the use of emergencies act. Not before that.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 42:09

Well, one of the issues I have with the emergencies Act is that Justin Trudeau kept saying that the rights are enshrined in the charter still, and that the emergency act is still subject to the charter. But what he failed to say is that those rights are subject to the charter retroactively. So the abuse under the EMA has to occur first. And once the abuse occurs, then the person that claims that they were abused, has to wait till the EMA is done. Hire a lawyer, go to court, have a judge say yes, your rights were violated, hire another lawyer to go to civil court and put together a package and sue the government, which the government can hire the best lawyers in the insurance industry. But me as Joe Blow on the street, if my bank account got frozen, let's say and I missed out, and I lost my home, and I lost my wife and my kids, you know, they moved on and my whole life falls apart. The abuse has already occurred. I found the wording to be very disingenuous, because while your rights are still protected, you know, under the AMA, well, yes, but I have to actually go and do all this extra work after my rights had been abused, to get any type of compensation and there's no guarantee any compensation would ever actually occur. When they were using that wording that really kind of scared me because it was a it was a dangerous form of doublespeak.

Darshan: 43:53

It's fairly common activity when it comes to charter rates because you made the salient point that they are retroactive, you can only prove a violation after it occurs and at huge cost to yourself. So you need safeguards where they are prevented from occurring. Unfortunately, we have first of all the reasonable limits limitation on Charter rights. Then there is the notwithstanding clause. Structurally, this is the world we are in where you can only retroactively have your rights Charter rights recognized. Until then, I mean, other than electing better politicians, and there is no other way out of

Coffee Breath Conversations: 44:38

that's not comforting. I'll say that. Well, Darshan, I really appreciate you coming on to the show today. grassy narrows. We need to see more action with the EMA. It'll be interesting to see what happens with these court challenges. If people want to find out more information if they'd like to look at your articles on your blog, where can they reach To you out.

Unknown: 45:01

My website is Darshanmaharaja.ca It has a contact form also so they can reach out to me I keep getting emails from my readers all the time. And normally I try to respond within 24 to 48 hours. And of course on Twitter, my handle is @theophanesrex. So that's another quick way of reaching me. Because I may check my email maybe once or twice a day, but Twitter is always on.

Coffee Breath Conversations: 45:34

And we're always connected on social media. Yes.